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05-13-2014 5:16:07 PM CST
To Mary: There is not one iota of proof of what Cathleen Doyle says. Not one picture or video of any of the 73 horses being injured in Charreada. All you have is her flapping lips and those lips lied. Even Eric Mills the man who started the anti charro movement says this is an exaggeration. As far as the 2 of 5 horse, that is pure unsubstantiated hearsay based on hearsay. No one says they actually saw the horses injured in Charreada. So all you have is nothing but nonsense. Quit wasting my time with hysterics and nonsense and find some real proof. The problem you will have, is the horses are not hurt in mangana, except on a very very few occasions. That is because the Charros practice the capture, to insure the horses are not hurt. In jumping, when a horse falls, it is an accident and more dangerous to the animals. If you want to outlaw horse roping, why not outlaw horse jumping. Horse jumping breaks and kills a lot of horses. If you want to protect horses, why not protect all the horses used in sports. By the way, if you has bothered to read the home page, before you started your rant, you would know my saddle horse was captured by its legs on a gravel rode. He was a young stallion and he bolted from the young man who was leading him and the horse tried to mount a mare that was not in heat. She protested by kicking him. When someone threw a rope around his neck, he pulled the rope out of the ropers hands. He stated running towards some children when he was taken down by his legs. I rode that horse until he was 18 when I let a young girl ride him in the escaramuza until he was 23. Then I gave him to a friend of my wife, since he still had some ride in him, but he was too old for the Charreada. I don't know where you get your information about how the horses are used. In a FMCH event, the horse are not repeatedly caught over and over. They are constantly being replaced. They have 3 or 4 horses available for 3 manganas. This is true, even though, only about 1/3rd of the horses are actually caught. Most of the time, all the horses do, is run around in a circle. In Pachuca, at the National Finals with some of the best Charros in Mexico, I videoed 22 manganas out of a possible 72. There were 40 misses. The SHARK video only shows the same 2 captures over and over. That was a 3 team Charreada with a possible 27 captures. There were 25 misses. The horses used in mangana are not abused, except in the imagination of the animal rights fanatics who tell horror stories then ask for money. Pandering to racism is still an easy way to raise money.
05-13-2014 3:37:45 PM CST
You're comparing apples to oranges here.
#1. Football is a team sport. No one is singled out during the entire game to be tackled over and over again. If they get hurt, they leave the game and seek medical attention. Then they rest and recuperate. NOT the same as a Charreada victim horse.
#2. Children and adults play football because they want to. They are not forced into participating. They are usually having fun. NOT the same as a Charreada victim horse.
Charreadas that feature horse tripping are exploiting unwanted horses. LITERALLY BEATING A DEAD HORSE.
Did you see this information? Is it a lie? "Horses sustain multiple serious injuries, including broken legs and necks, and spinal damage. Horses who try to escape by jumping over fences or walls are only captured and brought back to the arena for more torture to the cheers of the crowd.
There are no statistics available on the number of horses used in charro rodeos. They are not typically privately owned, but instead leased as they do not normally survive.
One source of horses for leasing to charro rodeos are feedlots.
Killer buyers employed by slaughterhouses lease out horses for the charreada circuit to make extra money from them before selling the horses to horse slaughter plants.
Before horse tripping was banned in California, a source at a Riverside feedlot reported they leased 25 horses per weekend to two different charro rodeos.
Upon their return, approximately 2 to 5 horses per week displayed injuries serious enough that the animals were sent to slaughter.
For each horse that went to slaughter, another from the feedlot replaced her on the charro circuit.
During that particular season, 75 to 100 horses were leased from that particular lot to the two charro rodeos, but only 2 of the original horses survived until the season's end."
No sir, you can't compare that to football.
I'm assuming you would have a favorite riding horse. Would you allow your fav partner to be used as a tripping horse?
I agree with you that there is no guarantee with any sport involving horses. Horse back riding statistically is one of the most dangerous sports for horse AND rider. Accidents can happen on a simple trail ride. I do not think that people who are involved in show jumping are out to purposely maim their horses. These are valuable animals/athletes who are taken care of better than most people. If a horse doesn't want to jump, it refuses. Most horses who are 'that good' enjoy their job. Does a tripping horse enjoy his/her job? Is there ANY glory for the tripped horse other than a trip back to the feedlot and off to slaughter? I do not know enough about steeple chases to be able to compare, as it is not a popular American sport. However, the American Thoroughbred racehorse industry has its own dark sides indeed.
Why can't you just leave horse tripping out of the Charreadas? Why is it so important to you to do this? The world no longer has arenas full of gladiators killing each other and large animals, yet that was part of history...
05-13-2014 5:30:50 AM CST
To Mary: I have seen the videos and I have put up videos of over 100 captures in mangana. In all of the videos including the one done by SHARK, the horses suffer no serious injuries. I have seen over 1000 captures in mangana and over 3000 captures in Piales, in all but one the horses got up and trotted away unhurt. You did not mention horse jumping. When I was young, I went to a steeple chase, 12 horses started 4 finished and 3 had to be put down. Horse jumping is the most dangerous thing you can do with a horse. Do you want to stop horse jumping too. An average of 6 out of 439 horses used in steeple chase die. Around 20 upper level horses use in xc die every year. You know about those horses because too many people are watching to hide them. Who knows how many horses die in the lower class events. Horses jumping gates can knock off the top rail, land on it, shatter their leg. So lets outlaw horse jumping, not just Mexican cultural activities. Since your concerned with human rights, we need to stop high school football. Children die and thousands are crippled in high school football every year. Nothing in life is 100% guaranteed and you can't just look a the dangers of something. If we did just that, then we would still be living in caves waiting for the sun to come up, because we never would have used fire. Yes there is a very slight danger to animals and people in sport, but you have to look a the benefits. In rodeo and horse jumping, millions of dollars are raised for scholarships. In Charreada, you have to get to know Charros to understand. When you work with teams made up of extended families with 2 and even 3 generations of Charro and Charras, working to maintain the tradition, you will understand what I am talking about. Until then you will not have a clue.
05-12-2014 7:52:18 PM CST
I'm not mean nor do I rant as you do. I'm guessing you have never 'googled' horse tripping to see any one else's youtube videos or websites because you just don't want to. You are right in your own mind and nothing I can say or suggest will change that. Personally, I have been to only one American rodeo in my life and will never go see another one. I do not live in an area where there are rodeos or Charreadas so I cannot speak to a Charro as you suggest. The only Mexicans I have met are roofers and builders and they do not speak English, so I cannot speak to them. However I hold their work ethics in the highest regard. Yes, there ARE other industries that are cruel to horses. I haven't singled out the Charreada as the ONLY industry that has it's issues. I'm researching the slaughter pipeline, and the #1 supplier is the AQHA, with over 70% of slaughter horses being Quarter Horses. 176,000 American horses went to slaughter last year to be served up in Europe, Canada and Mexico. American horses should not be consumed because the medicines and vaccinations used on horses are toxic to human beings. In the long run, this is not an issue about animal rights, but human rights.
05-12-2014 5:43:17 PM CST
To P Larson and Mary: No I am just tired of mean petty people who rant irrational nonsense. The fact is, Charreada is no more dangerous to animals then rodeo and it is less dangerous to horses then horse jumping. The only reason laws are passed against Charreada is political nievaty of the Charros, racism, and continued lies spewed by people like you and you cohorts. The whole bunch of you ought to be ashamed of yourselves. You malign and punish good people based on irrational and stupid thinking. Sooner or latter you phonies will be found out.
P. Larson, DVM, MS, JD
05-12-2014 12:10:01 PM CST
For Randy Janssen: You are so controlled by your horse tripping fetish that you manufacture lies to support your obsession. You don't pay any attention to facts. You call people racists, fanatics, stupid based on your own mistaken assumptions. And they are mistaken - badly. You have a mental problem. You have lost the ability to apply facts to reason. Early Alzheimer's perhaps? Why don't you get some help or at least get a diagnosis?
05-12-2014 8:37:38 AM CST
Again, funny stuff! You assume every white person is a racist, but it sounds like you are Mexican Nazi! And I guess because of that comment, I'm a racist against Mexicans AND Germans-lol! Your words ooze racism against white folks. We are Americans, sir. Plain and simple. Most Americans are mongrels, mixed races and mixed ethnic backgrounds. I'm assuming you are an American, too. And if you are, you should thank your lucky stars as I do. You are lucky you are free to post the mumbo jumbo that you have posted on this website. It's people like you who set America back to the dark ages with your own racism and cruelty against animals. You keep asking for proof of cruelty, but you won't allow postings of websites, therefore YOU must be a communist as you are the one ASKING for proof and not allowing it to be posted-lol! Maybe you're a politician...
05-11-2014 7:55:56 PM CST
To Mary: I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt and say you were just ignorant of the facts, then you come back to prove you are just stupid. Only stupid people believe the dribble of the animal rights fanatics web pages. Only people who are arrogant to the point of stupidity say what you did about the Chinese. I will get to that latter. First, traditional mangana is not illegal in “America”. It is legal in 38 states. Even non traditional mangana is legal in 49 states. There are three reasons it is illegal in 12 states. The first is the political naivety of the charros. They could have stopped the passage of the law in Nevada, but they believed the lies of a few politicians. It is a shame, but they allowed themselves to be duped with promises that were never intended to be kept. The second reason is plain old racism. People think Republicans don't like Mexicans, but liberal Democrats are just as bad. In Oregon people were complaining about Big Loop Roping. You rope the horse around the neck, it fights the rope and then gasp for air and passes out. So instead of making a law against roping horses around the neck, they pass a law against roping them around the legs. They also add a protection of rodeo amendment to the law. So now you can still hang horses in Oregon, but not traditional mangana. You can also do steer busting in rodeo. According to Eric Mills, steer busting is the most dangerous thing you can do with animals followed by calf roping, which is also still legal in Oregon. The third reason is the animal rights fanatics lies about the dangers of traditional mangana. They claim things like all the animals die or suffer some sort of serious injuries. The first reason you know this is not true, is because the charros are “decent people” and decent people would not do what they say to animals. The second reason you know it is not true, is because the complete lack of substantiation for their claims. All the have is flapping lips. No photos, no videos, no nothing. People have been videotaping and photographing Charreada for over 20 years. If what they say is true, they would have proof. Not just flapping lips. Now to the Chinese. Your a racist and you don't even know it. You promote the old white man's burden idea. You sound like some of the men who I was in the Army with who refereed to the Vietnamese as Gooks. You think your better then them. Well who made you the chief of the food police. I don't want to eat dogs, cats or horses, but who am I to say, someone else should not. What you say is just the height of Anglo arrogance and if you had a brain in your head, you would be ashamed of yourself.
05-11-2014 8:32:33 AM CST
Because I'm #1. Yes, I'm sure the average Charros are decent people. Horse tripping at Charreadas had been banned in America in 1995. Yet it is still practiced..."Tripped horses typically suffer serious injuries, from broken bones to spinal damage, sometimes dying as a result. Those who survive are usually so psychologically traumatized that they cannot even look at a rope without becoming terrified." Hmmm. Sounds like fun. Like I said, auction horse purchases maimed and beaten up and then put back into the slaughter pipeline. You cannot justify this practice. Chinese people do not serve up dogs and cats in their restaurants even though "culturally" they eat them. They eat horses, too. 1.5 million a year, in THEIR own country, but Americans find eating horses repulsive. That is because horses are generally looked upon with kindness in USA. There are still many bad industries that disrespect the horse, and the Charreadas that feature horse tripping is one of those industries. It INDEED hurts horses. And needs to stop completely.
05-11-2014 6:01:45 AM CST
To Mary: As I said, I don't worry about what stupid people think and saying that, just proves your ignorance. Learn something, go to a Charreada, see what happens. Get to know a Charro. You will find that they are good people who would never intentionally hurt an animal.
05-10-2014 11:18:24 PM CST
That's pretty funny! LOL! Cowardly, really?!? How am I supposed to believe your name is Randy Janssen? Because you wrote it? You could be a dorky white kid sitting at his laptop doing some kind of college research thing for all I know. YOU are the el stupido.
05-09-2014 6:53:49 AM CST
To Mary: Too cowardly to use your full legal name. You are full of hysterical rambling, but not an iota of proof of the dangers of Charreada. You obviously have never been to a Charreada nor even spoken to a Charro. It is stupid to rant about something you have never seen and people you have never even spoken too. What do you call someone who does something stupid. I don't worry about what stupid people say. Watch Charreada, talk to a Charro. Then come back and say something intelligent.
05-08-2014 6:53:32 PM CST
One more thing...charros usually frequent livestock auctions to find their "victim horses" for tripping. So if a person wants to purchase a good family horse, they have to pay more (this is after outbidding kill buyers) and get bid up by the charros because they don't look for wild horses, they pick the meek and gentle and make wrecks out of them when their done. Then, once the charros have had their "glory", they go off to the feedlots to get some money back from the meat man and the horse is sent off to slaughter. And this is done over and over again. I don't call that very dignified and respectful.
05-08-2014 6:24:41 PM CST
It is the year 2014. You macho macho poop heads think you are suave and sophisticated with your horse tripping...I think you are a bunch of jerks and someone should lasso you guys to the ground over and over again until you can't move anymore. There is nothing beautiful about maiming God's most beautiful creature. I don't care if its traditional to your culture. It is animal cruelty at its worst. The horse will do just about anything for man, as he is more loyal than most men, even give his life and this is the way you treat it. Repulsive. And defending it shows just how repulsive you are.
05-03-2014 5:05:25 PM CST
To p. Larson: I am sure you have some good friends who are Negro too. The question is, have you ever seen a Charreada or spoken to a Charro? It is stupid to criticize something you have never seen and people who you have never spoken too.
P. Larson, DVM, MS, JD
05-03-2014 5:01:14 PM CST
Janssen: Regarding racism, I have a relative who is married to a Mexican woman. A friend worked in Mexico for 10 years and we have Mexican friends. I support the "Dream Act". Do you even know what that is??? I spoke to a psychotherapist about your rantings and had her read what you have written. Domination is the central theme. I would be very careful who you call a "racist" or "scum" or "crackpots" as this will come back to haunt you. Perhaps even in a court of law. Get some help. You are hurting yourself.
05-03-2014 2:50:42 PM CST
You know how stupid it is to criticize something that you have never seen and people you have never talked to. As I have repeatedly said. The Charros are ready to do a scientific study of the dangers of Charreda. That is because they know it is not as dangerous to animals as high school football is to children. It is less dangerous to horses then jumping. So at least watch it before you start flapping your lips. You can see it live on Spanish TV, decharros(dot)com and charroup(dot)com. If you can get to know a charro, you will find out that they are not scum, they are not cruel and barbaric. They are good people who would never intentionally hurt an animal.
05-03-2014 2:33:16 PM CST
Mr. Janssen, "Flapping lips and no proof?" Are you trying to intimidate me with insults? "Small minded people like me and Larson?" There you go again!
And you think Larson and I are ignorant? Scum? Crackpots?
Gee, Mr. Janssen, you do go to extremes to hurt your own case, don't you!
05-03-2014 2:12:27 PM CST
To Walter Grant: Again with the flapping lips and no proof. I have posted all the racist ranting from the animal rights fanatics on my home page. Take the time to read it. I have also posted the one picture of a horse killed in a bad catch in mangana. There is one video done by Steve Hendi, showing the same two catches over and over, even in slow motion. This video is edited to show the horses being caught, but not show them getting up and trotting away. That is what happened. The problem with Charros, is that they are politically naïve. So they are not prepared to defend themselves. It is a shame though because they are good people, that have to put up with the racist ranting of people like you. People who like you and Larson, who have never been to a Charreada. Small minded people like you and Larson, who refuse the Charro Challenge, that is to do a scientific study of the dangers of Charreada. The Charros have been ready to do it for six years. But ignorant people like you and Larson, refuse because you would rather think Mexicans are scum. That is because only scum would do what you are accusing the Charros of doing. It is too bad that these good people have to put up with crackpots like you and Larson. So again, if you have proof of animals being injured in Charreada, send it to me and I will post it. Proof is not unsubstantiated ranting from someone who has never been to a Charreada. It is pictures or videos of injuries in the lienzo. You can see live Charreada on Spanish TV or charroup (dot) com. You can also see videos of complete Charreada if you google livestreamdecharros. I want you to watch it so you will see that Charros and Charras are good people who would never intentionally hurt animals
Walter Grant firstname.lastname@example.org
05-03-2014 12:32:36 PM CST
I have been following with interest, and I must say some amusement, your discussion with Dr. P. Larson. I must say she has repeatedly eaten your lunch.
Your repeated assertions that horses are not injured in mangana, or as it is often called horse-tripping, is absurd. Even a cursory perusal of evidence readily available on the Internet proves your assertions are false.
Certainly, the fact that the practice is banned in several states and communities would lead one to believe that plenty of well-informed people agree that charrera is harmful to horses.
05-02-2014 3:55:57 PM CST
To P. Larson: I did not have time to get to your other rant. I am always amused when animal rights fanatics complain about rodeo people wanting to “dominate” animals. Domination is the type of relationship all people have with animals. What can be more dominating then eating animals. Even vegetarians and vegans dominate animals. If you have put a dog on a leash, your dominating it. If you feed a dog or cat, your dominating the animals that were killed to go into their food. (I was once contacted by a real kook, who said she would never own a cat, because cats were part of the blood death cycle. I was halfway tempted to ask her, what we should do with those killer cats, but I was afraid of her answer) Domination is not an issue, because anyone who has contact with animals does it. The question is, is the domination reasonable? You need to answer three questions to make that determination. What are the benefits? What are the dangers? Do the benefits outweigh the dangers? The benefits of Charreada are the enjoyment of the team members. The enjoyment the audience derives. The maintaining of the traditions. Most of all though, is the fact that Charreada is a teams competition. The teams are usually formed around extended families. Competing together strengthens the family bonds. The dangers are Charros do get killed along with a very few animals. Yet those of us who know Charros, and can see the cohesion created by the family participation, understand that the benefits completely outweigh the dangers.
05-01-2014 7:46:25 PM CST
To P Larson: The Charros Federation USA, does not have any rules about anything. It has no rules at all because it is not real. It is a figment of somebody's imagination. Main stream Charrreada in both Mexico and the US follows rules promulgated by the FMCH (Federacion Mexicana Charreria), which has its headquarters in Mexico City. There usually about 400 teams in the US that belong to the FMCH. There is a rule against traditional mangana in the US, that was passed after California made a law agist traditional mangana during an emergency special session. The original attempt to stop traditional mangana failed during the regular session. The law against traditional mangana, was passed at the same time the anti immigrant Prop 187 passed. (Prop 187 was latter declared unconstitutional) Since Charros are very concerned with the society in Charreada, the FMCH passed a rule against traditional mangana to keep the teams from California from being at a disadvantage when competing against teams from states that did not have the ban. The FMCH, still allows tradition mangana with the complete capture in Mexico. That is because the Charros know there is nothing wrong with traditional mangana. The only people who have problems with it are some nervous Nellys who have never gotten to know Charros. If they did get to know them, they would find out that Charros and Charras are good people who would never intentionally hurt an animal. They are not ignorant nor cruel and barbaric.
P. Larson, DVM, MS, JD
05-01-2014 5:41:10 PM CST
The California-based Charros Federation USA states that it has voluntarily banned horse-tripping in mainstream charros for over 15 years.
P. Larson, DVM, MS, JD
05-01-2014 5:09:35 PM CST
You are getting repetitious. Did you finally run out of "bullshit" to peddle? You erroneously assumed that I am a "genuine animal rights fanatic". If it damaged me monetarily, I would present evidence that would allow me to sue the socks off of you. Giving me a label based on your fear of anyone more educated and experienced than you and your desperate need to dominate are merely more pieces of evidence of your self serving mendacity. Since you have nothing more to add to this discussion, and since I have a full surgical load tomorrow, I am ending this discussion. Get some help. See a therapist. Stop abusing helpless animals.
05-01-2014 1:14:37 PM CST
To P. Larson: I bet you don't eat meat. The actual MRI study said that dogs react to human emotions, not that they have emotions. Also animals have similar brains, but not the same. That is because we all evolved from the same protozoa. Humans developed further. One of the reasons we developed to a higher intellectual level is because we eat meat. Not to be facetious, I would like to know what the large animals are thinking. Do you talk to them and do they answer? As far as the propaganda about dead horses. Animal rights fanatics like Steve Hendi, have been taking pictures and videos of Charreada for over 20 years. If the animals had the injuries you now say, that documentation would be all over the internet. It is not. That is because all the animal rights fanatics have is flapping lips spewing racist ranting. What is all over the internet is hundreds of videos showing horses caught by their legs getting up and trotting away unhurt. That is what happens. Charros and Charras are good people who would never intentionally hurt an animal. They have been catching horses by their legs for over 400 years. If they were doing serious injuries to them on a regular basis they would have stopped. These are not ignorant nor cruel and barbaric people.