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02-14-2016 9:30:12 AM CST
To Mary: There are 78 pages of rules in Charreada. These cover everything from the type of bit used on horses to the size of the animals used in mangana. As a result, the numbers of the animals and Charros injured are few. That does not mean injuries do not happen. I helped load a Charro into an ambulance when he was run over by the horse while doing mangana. Injuries happen, but then children die in football and baseball.
02-08-2016 9:18:41 PM CST
How often do the people get hurt?
02-08-2016 9:09:07 AM CST
To Mary: What is the point of dancing or singing. For that matter what is the point of tackle football. Flag football is less dangerous, but do you think over 100 million people would watch a flag football super bowl. Charros think there is a beauty in the florero and a strength in the capture in mangana. Mangana also maintains the knowledge of capturing horses by their legs. Capturing horses by their legs is a legitimate means of capture, used by veterinarians and ranchers. Horses used in mangana are in less danger then a high school football player on a Saturday night. I have seen thousands of horses caught in mangana and none have suffered a serious injury to their mouth. That is because you loose points if you bring the horse up short, so it falls head first. In mangana you want to drop the horse on the fleshy part of its shoulder. That is why very, very few horses get hurt in mangana and even fewer are seriously injured.
02-08-2016 12:42:57 AM CST
I don't see the entertainment value in most of these types of "sport". The horse runs in a small circle and you trip them with a rope. That actually sounds less fun to me than telling a few men to race then pulling a rope out in front of them at peak speed just to watch them fall on their face and break their nose. Honestly I'd prefer to watch that. Yes not every horse bred will be a race or jump stud, but most people aren't good for much either. We don't just send the ones that won't make it as scientists or models to the death chamber or to be something else crazy like that, we don't tell them they're worthless. So not seeing the point.
10-09-2015 8:29:23 AM CST
To Judy Youngman: Saying your not going to make a comment, while you make a comment is schizophrenic. So, again, for those who are too dense to understand. If you have proof that horses are seriously injured in Charreada, post it. If not, keep your crazy comments to yourself.
Judy Youngman firstname.lastname@example.org
10-08-2015 1:13:25 PM CST
I find Randy Janssen's comments so full of total ignorance and immature, inappropriate rantings that I am not going to waste the ink to involve myself in this non-discussion!
06-19-2015 8:20:34 PM CST
To Patty: Piales and mangana are not cruel or abuse. A former president of the American Association of Equine Practitioners says catching horses by their legs is safer then catching them by their neck. Charros have been catching horses by their legs for 400 years and if they had been doing serious injuries to them they would have stopped. The problem is, the urban society in the US is getting overrun by Nervous Nellys and the weak at heart, who could not hold a leg at a calf castration. More and more people are thinking that this is going to be the downfall of the US. Too many weaklings.
06-19-2015 6:09:22 PM CST
This is the sickest stuff I have ever heard of. Even in a country that routinely abuses animals you really take the cake.
05-22-2014 6:07:38 AM CST
To Mary: The problems that all breeders have, is that not all animals are worth something. Not every horse that is breed is Secretariat. Some of them are just plain nags. There are a mutilate of inherited diseases and disorders that can effect a horse, many of which are not discovered until the animal is grown. If you are producing animals for specific function like jumping or TB racing, you have to produce a lot, otherwise the industry will die. What do you do with the horses that are just not up to par. If you use them in mangana and piales, they live. 2/3rd of the time all they do is run around in a circle if they are used in mangana. In piales, there are even less captures. I have been to many Charreadas where no piales are caught. In Guadalajara a few years ago, the horses were so big and fast, they were breaking the ropes. If people base their conclusions about Charreada on the highly edited videos of Steve Hendi or the unsubstantiated ranting of people like Cathleen Doyle, I can understand why they think what they do. That is why I tell Charros, the best defense of Charreada is good Charreada and I tell critics of Charreada, go to one and meet the Charros. They are good people who would never intentionally hurt an animal. I will admit the animals do get bounced around. Some people can't handle that. We live in an urban society, that believes meat just appears in the coolers in the supermarket. Animals evolved in such a manner to be able to survive and even thrive being bounced around. Check the literature, the biggest danger in football is concussions, but horses do not get them. It has to do with the confirmation of their head and the size of their brains. They also don't have spindly legs. Every so often I will be feeding my horse and they will kick out at the horse in the next stable. They will put a crack and sometimes a hole in the cinder block walls when the cinder block in filled with cement and re bar. Nobody wants to hurt these animals and except in a very few occasions when an accident happens, they are not.
05-21-2014 10:49:46 AM CST
I think the "Big Lick" in TWH is mostly licked, except for a few. For that, I am glad. I understand where you're coming from. I feel that it's unjustifiable for the prez and CEO's of these big orgs to make over $200k and $500k a year while the rest of the real world of rescues and spca's barely scrape by. "When" I have extra cash, I donate to my locals and the ones that foot much of the financial burden of caring for animals themselves. They don't get much help from the big orgs who make a crap load of profit. They'd rather spend their time and money attacking a benign industry such as the NYC carriage horses—who have a better work life and schedule than most people. I don't understand why they don't go after the biggest problems, such as the QH or the TB industries with their over-breeding...And because of rules in the Jockey Club, there are over 50,000 nurse mare foals born each year and only a handful saved by rescues. Seriously...get real PETA. I've followed the piece they did on Steve Asmussen, and it has led to nothing. I feel that the big orgs need to prioritize, take their money and tackle the biggest culprits who feed the slaughter pipeline. But that is just my little 'ol opinion. I know I'll get blasted... I don't know much about Steve Hendi. From what I've read, he's either admired or hated, hunter turned activist. Now to horse jumping. When I see ads for OTTB adoption, the horses are advertised according to their athletic ability, such as "good hunter/jumper prospect", started over 1.5' jumps, or dressage, trail horse, etc. But I cannot for the life of me see them as advertised as "sturdy, and suitable for tripping". That's kinda funny, don't you think?
05-20-2014 4:26:36 PM CST
To Mary: Steve Hendi; the head of SHARK, does not like rodeo or Charreada. He's not a racist, he's an effete intellectual snob. You know this because he never attacks jumping. He has found that there is a lot of money in pandering to the heart strings of the American public. If you follow his videos, you see that a large number of his supporters post pictures of themselves with their jumpers wearing helmets. So he prostitutes himself. What is interesting is Oregon passed a law against Charreada, but not big loop roping, which is what both the HSUS and Hendi were complaining about. Passing laws against something is easy when you throw racism in. About TWH, I think anyone who uses caustics on horses is despicable. I don't think it should be a Federal crime. Laws cost money and things are tight enough. We have more important things to do with our taxes. Also the HSUS has a tendency to make a bigger mess then it solves. I don't trust the HSUS, the ASPCA or PETA. They are vegan activist.
05-19-2014 9:26:32 AM CST
Mr. Janssen, I am truly sorry for any racist rhetoric that you, your family and friends have had to endure. It is wrong. I want to mention though that I have been following the news regarding the Jordan Valley Rodeo. From the photos, it looks like the participants and audience is primarily white. Last year, the white activists were thrown out of the event by white people while white people cheered. Then they were pulled over by a white cop while they were driving for no apparent reason except to intimidate. This year things went much better because of the exposure the activists brought to the event. Hopefully soon, the Tennessee Walking horse industry will change its patterns of abuse because of the work of people who care about animals cnn.com/2012/05/24/us/tennessee-horse-abuse/. Abuse of horses is wrong in any industry and this is just the tip of the iceberg in what I've researched. Plus, I have to mention again, that sports players have a choice in their careers, horses have no choice in what they do or what is done to them.
05-19-2014 5:44:36 AM CST
Are ice hockey players, football players, boxers treated with dignity? I don't know. What I do know is that the horses used in mangana and piales suffer very few injuries and even fewer serious injuries. I also know that the hate filled racially motivated ranting that the Charros have to endure, takes away their dignity.
05-17-2014 8:51:05 AM CST
I was quoting the word dominance because you had used it in a previous post, even to describe walking a dog...when I owned a dog, I used a leash when walking to protect her from running off, getting lost and to protect other people from getting jumped on. Not to dominate her. Besides, there are leash laws where I live. We fought WWII to help protect the US and we keep sociopaths in prison to protect people from them. When it comes to catchwords, my choice word would be 'dignified'. Even American prisoners who have committed the most despicable crimes and found guilty to be put to death are given a more 'dignified' death than ever before by lethal injection usually. You try to paint a pretty picture of horse tripping. Do you consider horse tripping a dignified occupation for a horse?
05-17-2014 6:18:40 AM CST
To Mary: Dominance seems to be the new animal rights catchword. Eric Mills used it, Peggy Larson used it and now you. It seems that all of you are looking for some sort of Gandiest nirvana. Dominating things is not a bad idea. What would the world be like if we did not dominate Japan and Germany? The prisons are full of sociopaths that need to be dominated. Do you want Charles Manson walking free? With animals, what might be workable in a one on one situation in a controlled environment is not practical on the open range with 20 or 30 animals. You also seem to look at jumping as some sort of holistic partnership between the horse and rider. You probably think horses love jumping too. Well I have seen too many horses bulk at a barrier to believe they want to jump. When the horses bulk, the rider does not sit down with the animal and try to work things out. They jerk on the reins, dig their spurs in and force the animal to make the jump. Always looks like the rider in trying to dominate the horse to me. Sometimes when this happens, the horse fails, falls, breaks a leg and has to be put down. The fact is, no matter how beautiful it is, horse jumping is the most dangerous thing you can do with a horse. Charreada, like horse jumping is a celebration of our history. Charreada celibates traditional animal husbandry methods that are still used. People still move cattle by grabbing their tails and using them like a tiller on a sailboat. It is less traumatic then throwing a rope around their neck and dragging them. According to Doug Winsset a vet in Oregon, he still ropes horses by their legs. I know it is also done in Montana too. It is a legitimate means of capture. Done properly, it does not hurt the horse. So Carreada has a reason, it maintains the knowledge and tradition. What is the reason for forcing a horse to jump a six foot barrier, with a 140 lb rider on its back, when death is one slip away?
05-16-2014 6:12:39 PM CST
Wow! Who would have guessed that a heart beats in the old Grinch after all...I appreciate you answering my question. Let me ramble: Do I think horse jumping should be outlawed? No, not outlawed. The higher level events should have better regulations and vet monitoring, but not outlawed. Same as the Charreadas. I do not think they should be outlawed. Cultural events are important and exciting, BUT to see the 'partnership' between horse and rider, not 'dominance' as you put it. When an event terrorizes animals, it crosses the line. And no, I am not a fan of steeplechase races. I think it pushes horses too hard and there are too many accidents. I am a researcher, not an extreme activist. But I believe animals should be treated fairly. I started researching because I would like to help the unwanted horse population. There is a lot of abuse in the horse industry.
05-16-2014 6:11:55 AM CST
To Mary: At my age and with my back I have to use a step latter to get on my horse. I have six horses. Two my grand daughters ride. A thirty-three year old gilding my youngest grand daughter is learning to ride on, while her horse is being trained. I have my saddle horse and a horse that has been used in mangana and piales for the last two years. I got him in a three horse deal for $500.00. I could have gotten all three for free, because the owner could not feed them any more. One was is a filly that is being trained for my five year old grand daughter. I gave her 20 year old mother away. She is a gentle horse that children can learn to ride on. Nobody wanted her brother. Since I can't afford to feed a horse for nothing, I let a team use him. They feed him. After two years he is still in good condition. I guess I could have made some money and sold him to a kill buyer, but I am not all that fond of horse slaughter. Intellectually, I know there is only so much grass. Emotionally is a different story. That is why I am still feeding a thirty-three year old horse.
05-15-2014 6:39:20 PM CST
Do you currently own a horse and currently ride in Charreadas? You "rambled" about your retired horse...And so if you do, would you use your horse as a tripping horse?
05-15-2014 3:44:42 PM CST
You ramble so much, I can't find your question. What is it?
05-15-2014 2:34:51 PM CST
Mr. Janssen, if your going to act childish, then you haven't answered my questions, either.
05-15-2014 2:13:16 PM CST
To Mary: You still have not answered my question. Should horse jumping be outlawed?
05-15-2014 11:21:55 AM CST
Why are you so obtuse? Horse tripping is the equivalent to using bait dogs in dog fighting, which by the way, is illegal. Go back under your bridge, you troll. You are promoting a sadistic recreation. I'm done with you.
05-14-2014 5:46:15 AM CST
To Mary: What about horse jumping? Should it be outlawed? Horses are broken and die in horse jumping. If you want to protect horses, why not protect all the horses. Why don't you and Peggy Larson chain yourselves to the gates at the Grand National held in Maryland every year. Why don't you and Larson show your support of horses. You can see some of that race on my video Horse Tripping Mangana is Safe Save Charreada on youtube.
05-13-2014 8:05:25 PM CST
The person I was trying to contact stated that she has found very early on that you cannot have a sensible discussion with the ranters and feel no need to defend anything they say on this issue. Sounds just like someone I've been trying to have a rational discussion with...Anyway, I have found enough video proof via you tube as evidence of the cruelty of horse tripping. (I suggest you take another look, as you probably haven't looked since 2009) - Yes, I came across a thread with the same 'argument' you still are trying to present. I feel very comfortable with my stance and hope the practice of horse tripping and steer tailing will be outlawed all over the United States very soon. "I am in favor of animal rights as well as human rights. That is the way of a whole human being."
05-13-2014 6:51:54 PM CST
Well Mr. Janssen, you are mistaken by the name of the author of the information I quoted. However, as a researcher, and since you say there is no basis to this information, I will try to get to the bottom of it : ) Since your horse is retired, does that mean you no longer ride/have a horse to ride in the Charreada?